Talk:Clan Robertson

Merge from Clan Duncan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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We seem to have a huge WP:CONTENTFORK going on here. There's a separate article at Clan Duncan but this article, Clan Robertson, says it's the same clan, and this article is more developed. I ultimately don't care which of the three (or four, if you count the Donnachie anglicisation) names is used for the article title; should probably be whichever one the clan most uses "officially". PS: A lot of the text at Clan Duncan seems like material lifted from (or written by someone associated with) a latter-day clan association that is pushing for things like separate Lord Lyon recognition and so forth. So, this might actually be a full-on WP:POVFORK.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dunalistair Castle

Dunalistair Castle is NOT the historic seat of the Chiefs of Clan Donnachaidh. This is a persistent and common misperception. It is near the site of where the Poet Chief lived (13trh chief) but the current ruin is nothing to do with the clan. Source - my father is Alexander Gilbert Robertson (current chief) and I am the heir. Arobertson410 (talk) 07:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

If you have a verifiable source, please present it. Until then, I've again reverted your removal of the referenced material in the article. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Mike - this is literally my family's history. Here is a link to the page of the current owners. History of Dunalastair Estate, Clan Donnachaidh and the Macdonalds You may think you have a source but I can assure you it is bogus! Arobertson410 (talk) 14:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I respect that it's your family's history, but you need to provide a reliable source. Please don't continue to remove existing sources until you can do so. -- Mikeblas (talk) 21:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Mike - you can quote me. This is my family's history and I AM a source. You, I'm afraid are quoting from an unreliable and false record. If you wish this article to be correct and not perpetuating a popular misconception you should trust verifiable and accurate information and not persist in incorrectly amending information which is plain wrong. Please amend and put it back to the factually correct position which I provided. Arobertson410 (talk) 22:29, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Verifiability is not established by your own word. A better source is needed than a commercial travel website. -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Mike - I'm afraid you are ignorantly perpetuating a verifiably false piece of information. Just because something is published on the web does not make it true as you should be aware. The house was built in 1854 which is after my the then chief sold the land in 1854 so it is chronological impossible for it to be anything to do with the clan. Secret Scotland - Dunalastair House A Place in the Shade — Larry E. Boerder | Traditional & Classical Architecture (larryboerder.com) Arobertson410 (talk) 06:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Arobertson410: Please understand that absolutely no one, ever, for any reason "is a source", in and of themselves, at this project. So, no, "you can quote me" is not correct here, for any editor, under any circumstances. See the WP:Verifiability policy and the WP:Reliable sources guideline. What counts as a source here is published material from reputable publishers.

The situation here is that at least one editor has found and cited a presumptively reliable source for a particular claim. It's a claim you disagree with, but you provided first no sources at all, now only very weak sources, to support any kind of counter-claim, nor any sourcing at all that demonstrates the unreliability of the source we already have. It's not that anyone here actively disbelieves you. It's simply that this site does not operate on an assertions-and-belief basis, only the basis of the preponderance of reliable and independent sources (claims at a clan association's self-published website won't count as independent; just putting that out there, to head off any move in that direction).

Mikeblas above is correct that some travel-spam site is not a reliable source. Nor (per WP:UGC policy) is some salacious user-generated wiki (which is probably cribbing material from Wikipedia in the first place); that SecretScotland one you linked to doesn't even support your viewpoint, and clearly states "Dunalastair is an estate which ... was home to Clan Donnachaidh". The Larry Boerder personal blog may not be a reliable source, either (per the same policy about self-published material), though if he can be proven to be a subject-matter expert, he might qualify for an exception. Assuming he is one, all his material shows is that the present Dunalastair House building dates to 1852; this ultimately is completely meaningless to the underlying question of whether that estate (or the lands on which the extant estate is now located) are assocated with Clan Donnachaidh/Robertson. A large number of British manors and castles have been rebuilt and re-rebuilt over the centuries, and land changed hands, and changed exact boundaries even when they didn't change hands. So far, it looks like our material needs clarification that the present building at this site is not the one that was historically used by the clan, at essentially the same location. We don't have any sourcing available at this point that indicates that the association of the clan with the location more generally is wrong.

Fortunately, there are many well-researched works on Scottish clans and their histories, so providing more sources should be rather easy. Some of them are out of copyright now and can be found via Google Books and other sites as free PDFs. A fair number of modern still-in-copyright works of this sort can actually be read in full at Internet Archive with its "Check out this book for an hour" feature (you just have to create a free account there and login first). A bunch of these books (in both copyright categories) are available here (and that's the just the ones categorized correctly, aside from some romance novels also mixed in there; other such works can be found with searches at the same site for "Scottish clans", "Clans of Scotland", etc. There are also more-specific works about Scottish baronial manors and other estates (in both the out-of-copyright and copyrighted-but-readable-at-Internet-Archive categories). So, it would be eminently more practical for you to spend a little time looking for and citing in detail (including page numbers) additional sources (real sources, not junk websites) about this clan's geographical history, than to continue repetitively trying to "argue Wikipedia into capitulation". Just venting, with gratuitous hostility (e.g., calling other editors names like "ignorant" simply because they aren't giving you what you unreasonably demand without doing any of the work), is simply not going to be productive in any way.

PS: I already own most books on the subject, and if this dispute isn't resolved pretty soon by your own leg-work for proper sourcing, I can look into doing it myself, but I have dozens of other higher-priority research projects on my plate already, so it wouldn't happen very quickly. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

i've cited the OWNERS of the property and this is about MY family history. If you want to view bogus sources then do so but your information is incorrect. This is not arguing to capitulation it is perpetuating false information. It is up to the person who wrote the information to show it is correct. and sourced reliably. And here is another source The Castles of Clan Donnachaidh | ScotlandShop added to the article. Arobertson410 (talk) 10:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Name & Translation Clarification

For editors.

Donnachaidh is and has never been Scottish Gaelic for Robertson, nor have Robertsons argued Donnachaidh is in fact Robertson. Donnachaidh is Gaelic for Duncan & similar variation, MAC-Donnachaidh (Son of Duncan) as stated.

MacRoibeirt is a Gaelic equivalent, however with clans comes custom & practice. The Robertson's claim to be sons of Duncan, however technically yes they should not use the Germanic "Robertson", which is is more aligned to the lowland Germanic and/or Norse practises of placing Son at the end of the forenames, in theory (the going argument) is that they should use Duncan, Duncanson etc.

Clan Robertson uses Robertson when & where communicating within the English language, however identify as Duncan's Sons in Scots Gaelic. Please read the front page carefully before editing & conduct some background studies. 194.73.217.219 (talk) 12:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)